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	<title>Comments on: Grokking the Subaqueous Consigliere John Clute</title>
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	<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/</link>
	<description>Jeff VanderMeer</description>
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		<title>By: fritz freiheit.com blog » Link dump</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-26028</link>
		<dc:creator>fritz freiheit.com blog » Link dump</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-26028</guid>
		<description>[...] Ecstatic Days &#65533; Blog Archive &#65533; Grokking the Subaqueous Consigliere John Clute (Review,... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ecstatic Days &#65533; Blog Archive &#65533; Grokking the Subaqueous Consigliere John Clute (Review,&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jeff vandermeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25896</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff vandermeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>er, I meant marco not phil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>er, I meant marco not phil.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff vandermeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25895</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff vandermeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25895</guid>
		<description>Phil--i think you have a point, but my point is that yahoos complaining about big words aren&#039;t expressing your point. They&#039;re just yahoos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil&#8211;i think you have a point, but my point is that yahoos complaining about big words aren&#8217;t expressing your point. They&#8217;re just yahoos.</p>
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		<title>By: marco</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25894</link>
		<dc:creator>marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25894</guid>
		<description>Jeff: In an age when we have not too much sophisticated analysis of books but too little, it is hard to fault a reviewer for  

PhilRM: I occasionally reach the end of a review wondering “John, do you think this book is worth reading, or not?&quot;

I see.  A review must expand vocabulary, validate 13 years of post-secundary education, showcase sophisticated erudition (BIG WORDS) and therefore be intellectually rewarding to read. 
If the enumeration of strengths and shortcomings of the work under scrutiny doesn&#039;t add up to a clear, albeit personal and open to debate, evaluation of merit, well, that&#039;s not the main purpose, right?

In the course of my English Literature classes I&#039;ve read, among others, Beowulf, Sir Gawain and The Green Knight, The Faerie Queene, The Changeling, A Journal of the Plague Year,The Mysteries of Udolpho, Vanity Fair, Zanoni.  I don&#039;t find Clute particularly obscure or challenging, nor does he enlarge my vocabulary or convey a frisson of literary excitement.

He does, however, give the impression of a mismatch between style and function, or at the very least of unnecessary sophistication. To wonder what&#039;s the point is only a natural reaction. 

Some of his coinages (&quot;realpolitiking consiglieri&quot;) taken in isolation  may be considered aptly descriptive turns of phrase and felicitous creations , but the cumulative effect is floridness with no apparent purpose, and therefore bathos. I&#039;m sorry, but I don&#039;t think that the phrase &quot;indurated durance vile&quot; has been chosen because it conveys some particular shade of meaning with regards to the type of confinement we may encounter in The Windup Girl.

But maybe I&#039;m too literate to appreciate what Clute&#039;s trying to do. 
I may be misled by my studies of classical rhetoric - the science, or art, of harmonizing goal, content and form, which was strict in prescribing which kind of style was appropriate for various types of discourse, and aware of the potential pitfalls of wrong choices.

&quot;For instance, bordering on the Grand style, which is in itself praiseworthy, there is a style to be avoided. To call this the Swollen style will prove correct. For just as a swelling often resembles a healthy condition of the body, so, to those who are inexperienced, turgid and inflated language either in new or in archaic words, or in clumsy metaphors, or in [b]diction more impressive than the theme demands [/b]...
Most of those who fall into this type, straying from the type they began with, are misled by the appearance of grandeur and cannot perceive the tumidity of the style. &quot; (from the Rhetorica ad Herennium).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: In an age when we have not too much sophisticated analysis of books but too little, it is hard to fault a reviewer for  </p>
<p>PhilRM: I occasionally reach the end of a review wondering “John, do you think this book is worth reading, or not?&#8221;</p>
<p>I see.  A review must expand vocabulary, validate 13 years of post-secundary education, showcase sophisticated erudition (BIG WORDS) and therefore be intellectually rewarding to read.<br />
If the enumeration of strengths and shortcomings of the work under scrutiny doesn&#8217;t add up to a clear, albeit personal and open to debate, evaluation of merit, well, that&#8217;s not the main purpose, right?</p>
<p>In the course of my English Literature classes I&#8217;ve read, among others, Beowulf, Sir Gawain and The Green Knight, The Faerie Queene, The Changeling, A Journal of the Plague Year,The Mysteries of Udolpho, Vanity Fair, Zanoni.  I don&#8217;t find Clute particularly obscure or challenging, nor does he enlarge my vocabulary or convey a frisson of literary excitement.</p>
<p>He does, however, give the impression of a mismatch between style and function, or at the very least of unnecessary sophistication. To wonder what&#8217;s the point is only a natural reaction. </p>
<p>Some of his coinages (&#8220;realpolitiking consiglieri&#8221;) taken in isolation  may be considered aptly descriptive turns of phrase and felicitous creations , but the cumulative effect is floridness with no apparent purpose, and therefore bathos. I&#8217;m sorry, but I don&#8217;t think that the phrase &#8220;indurated durance vile&#8221; has been chosen because it conveys some particular shade of meaning with regards to the type of confinement we may encounter in The Windup Girl.</p>
<p>But maybe I&#8217;m too literate to appreciate what Clute&#8217;s trying to do.<br />
I may be misled by my studies of classical rhetoric &#8211; the science, or art, of harmonizing goal, content and form, which was strict in prescribing which kind of style was appropriate for various types of discourse, and aware of the potential pitfalls of wrong choices.</p>
<p>&#8220;For instance, bordering on the Grand style, which is in itself praiseworthy, there is a style to be avoided. To call this the Swollen style will prove correct. For just as a swelling often resembles a healthy condition of the body, so, to those who are inexperienced, turgid and inflated language either in new or in archaic words, or in clumsy metaphors, or in [b]diction more impressive than the theme demands [/b]&#8230;<br />
Most of those who fall into this type, straying from the type they began with, are misled by the appearance of grandeur and cannot perceive the tumidity of the style. &#8221; (from the Rhetorica ad Herennium).</p>
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		<title>By: PhilRM</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25885</link>
		<dc:creator>PhilRM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25885</guid>
		<description>P.S. Oh, and Jeff, I&#039;m totally with you on your last paragraph! &quot;Hi, this is my friend Story...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Oh, and Jeff, I&#8217;m totally with you on your last paragraph! &#8220;Hi, this is my friend Story&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: PhilRM</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25884</link>
		<dc:creator>PhilRM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25884</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with John Ginsberg-Stevens - I really enjoy reading Clute&#039;s reviews, and I have always found them insightful, even though I don&#039;t always agree with him, and I occasionally reach the end of a review wondering &quot;John, do you think this book is worth reading, or not?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with John Ginsberg-Stevens &#8211; I really enjoy reading Clute&#8217;s reviews, and I have always found them insightful, even though I don&#8217;t always agree with him, and I occasionally reach the end of a review wondering &#8220;John, do you think this book is worth reading, or not?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25881</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25881</guid>
		<description>I have a vague sense that the unwillingness to meet Clute on his own terms has something to do with the persistent divide between &quot;genre&quot; and &quot;literature.&quot;  If he were writing about the latter, there&#039;d still be people who found him insufferable, but not as many.  Doesn&#039;t the SF audience recognize a Milton reference or know who Canute was? It&#039;s as annoying as those Itzkoffian &quot;mainstream&quot; reviewers who patronize what they don&#039;t understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a vague sense that the unwillingness to meet Clute on his own terms has something to do with the persistent divide between &#8220;genre&#8221; and &#8220;literature.&#8221;  If he were writing about the latter, there&#8217;d still be people who found him insufferable, but not as many.  Doesn&#8217;t the SF audience recognize a Milton reference or know who Canute was? It&#8217;s as annoying as those Itzkoffian &#8220;mainstream&#8221; reviewers who patronize what they don&#8217;t understand.</p>
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		<title>By: John Ginsberg-Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25879</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ginsberg-Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25879</guid>
		<description>I love Clute&#039;s reviews.  They are always a delightful exercise to read, and totally validate my 13 years of post-secondary education.  And as a writer I&#039;d be giddy if someone wrote a review like that for my work, even if they shredded it.  It&#039;s too bad that some folks can&#039;t stand sophisticated erudition (BIG WORDS).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Clute&#8217;s reviews.  They are always a delightful exercise to read, and totally validate my 13 years of post-secondary education.  And as a writer I&#8217;d be giddy if someone wrote a review like that for my work, even if they shredded it.  It&#8217;s too bad that some folks can&#8217;t stand sophisticated erudition (BIG WORDS).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25878</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think he glossed over a lot of clunky plot stuff, frankly--even as he mentions it. It&#039;s an interesting first novel. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s as accomplished as his short fiction, but it&#039;s a good start.

The main problem with Clute is something he&#039;s not responsible for: people who try to imitate that approach. Then it just becomes parody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think he glossed over a lot of clunky plot stuff, frankly&#8211;even as he mentions it. It&#8217;s an interesting first novel. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s as accomplished as his short fiction, but it&#8217;s a good start.</p>
<p>The main problem with Clute is something he&#8217;s not responsible for: people who try to imitate that approach. Then it just becomes parody.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/09/18/grokking-the-subaqueous-consigliere-john-clute/comment-page-1/#comment-25877</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=5597#comment-25877</guid>
		<description>Ha!  That&#039;s quite amusing...and such a sad indictment of the illiterati out there that they cannot (or will not) try to follow what Clute is saying.

That being said, it seems he had a much better impression of Bacigalupi&#039;s novel than I did, but I&#039;ll elaborate on that this weekend, after I recover from the possible flu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha!  That&#8217;s quite amusing&#8230;and such a sad indictment of the illiterati out there that they cannot (or will not) try to follow what Clute is saying.</p>
<p>That being said, it seems he had a much better impression of Bacigalupi&#8217;s novel than I did, but I&#8217;ll elaborate on that this weekend, after I recover from the possible flu.</p>
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