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	<title>Comments on: Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Sh*t</title>
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	<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/</link>
	<description>Jeff VanderMeer</description>
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		<title>By: Nero</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-25959</link>
		<dc:creator>Nero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-25959</guid>
		<description>Can you tell me if the ebook biz of www.darkcastle.com is for real?  It looks like they&#039;re still developing the site, but the premise looks interesting.  Anyway, has anyone here heard of them; and, are they legit?  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you tell me if the ebook biz of <a href="http://www.darkcastle.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.darkcastle.com</a> is for real?  It looks like they&#8217;re still developing the site, but the premise looks interesting.  Anyway, has anyone here heard of them; and, are they legit?  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-25737</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-25737</guid>
		<description>I was supposed to read this book for University, The Bluest Eye, and I just threw it down when it got to the bit that can be described simply as &quot;The black man comes home drunk and rapes his daughter&quot;.  I don&#039;t exactly feel like my life was incomplete before I read this book.  And I don&#039;t even want to think about Metro, a story entirely about sex, closet homosexuals, arrogant pricks and objectifying women, with not a single redeemable character in it...  Point is, I want to get away from &quot;normal stories&quot; about rape and masculine-dominance-sexual-objectification and all that crap that&#039;s nonetheless international best-seller material.  So yes, I&#039;d like fantasy authors to steer away from rape unless there&#039;s absolutely no way around it, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was supposed to read this book for University, The Bluest Eye, and I just threw it down when it got to the bit that can be described simply as &#8220;The black man comes home drunk and rapes his daughter&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t exactly feel like my life was incomplete before I read this book.  And I don&#8217;t even want to think about Metro, a story entirely about sex, closet homosexuals, arrogant pricks and objectifying women, with not a single redeemable character in it&#8230;  Point is, I want to get away from &#8220;normal stories&#8221; about rape and masculine-dominance-sexual-objectification and all that crap that&#8217;s nonetheless international best-seller material.  So yes, I&#8217;d like fantasy authors to steer away from rape unless there&#8217;s absolutely no way around it, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Shruti Chandra Gupta</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-24718</link>
		<dc:creator>Shruti Chandra Gupta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-24718</guid>
		<description>You scared me. I am a fiction writer, currently working on a novel. I will need to tread very carefully; with such strong reactions, my readers would kill me. lol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You scared me. I am a fiction writer, currently working on a novel. I will need to tread very carefully; with such strong reactions, my readers would kill me. lol.</p>
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		<title>By: Misti</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-22932</link>
		<dc:creator>Misti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-22932</guid>
		<description>*studies points and considers her WiPs*

A writer should always make sure he knows what he&#039;s doing and why in a story.  Do I use rape in my stories?  Yes.  Do I rely on it as my first choice?  No.  I always scrutinize the scene and consider why it&#039;s there.  If the story will stand without a certain bit of disturbing content, I shred it and try again.  Even the rape that remains is off-screen, usually in backstory.

&lt;strong&gt;Indiana Jim&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;
However, I have to agree with Shane a smidge. While I agree rape is overused, the idea of a woman feeling guilty for having multiple partners (to varying degrees and varieties) is extremely common, and in fact more likely than the other angle. I think men who have multiple partners are slutty too, so how’s that for equal time?&lt;/em&gt;

Call me a Puritan if you like, but I actually agree with Indiana Jim on thinking multiple-partnered men every bit as slutty as multiple-partnered women.  That said, I do realize sex outside marriage is common.  While my characters overall reflect my belief that sex belongs inside marriage, I do my best to balance my characters.  I don&#039;t strictly follow &quot;girl virgin = good/not virgin = evil&quot; stereotype.  That&#039;s as rude as the &quot;any deeply religious conservative person is a Bible-thumping fanatic&quot; stereotype.  Which I endeavor not to take personally.

Irony is harder to pull off than writers like admitting.  If you have to TELL me that you intended to be ironic (or anything else, for that matter), then your writing needs work.  Go practice until I know what you&#039;re doing without you telling me you&#039;re (failing at) doing it, then keep at it until someone who doesn&#039;t write herself can figure it out, too.

&lt;strong&gt;Indiana Jim&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;
I kind of get pissed when fiction writers do the “men are all stupid and self-absorbed” bit, and also the whole “I could tell you this one simple fact which would explain my position, but I won’t. Instead, I’ll let this character continue to be pissed at the other for no real apparent reason other than it provides conflict” thing. You know?&lt;/em&gt;

Yeah, those drive me batty, too.  The movie &lt;em&gt;Mr. and Mrs. Smith&lt;/em&gt; was fun, but it really demonstrated the entire silly guy vs. smart girl cliches.  Seems like in a lot of works, either the man or the woman has to be right ALL the time.  Why not sometimes the girl, sometimes the guy?

In a similar vein, what about the idiot parents vs. savvy kids trope?  Older CAN be wiser.  (Of course, now I think of YA books that agree with me, there, and pull it off well.)  Now, I realize that it&#039;s difficult to have the reader know what&#039;s REALLY going on without making the ignorant narrator seem like a complete idiot.  But &quot;difficult&quot; has a different meaning than &quot;impossible.&quot;

And seriously, there&#039;s such thing as trying too hard.  I won&#039;t name names, but I recently read a novel with a character who&#039;s a murderous sociopath--and the writer&#039;s writing was screaming &quot;Wow, look at HIM!  Isn&#039;t he so COOL?!&quot;  Um, no, he&#039;s a murderous sociopath, and I think I&#039;ll quietly excuse myself and hope I never meet you at a convention.

No offense intended by any of this reply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*studies points and considers her WiPs*</p>
<p>A writer should always make sure he knows what he&#8217;s doing and why in a story.  Do I use rape in my stories?  Yes.  Do I rely on it as my first choice?  No.  I always scrutinize the scene and consider why it&#8217;s there.  If the story will stand without a certain bit of disturbing content, I shred it and try again.  Even the rape that remains is off-screen, usually in backstory.</p>
<p><strong>Indiana Jim</strong><em><br />
However, I have to agree with Shane a smidge. While I agree rape is overused, the idea of a woman feeling guilty for having multiple partners (to varying degrees and varieties) is extremely common, and in fact more likely than the other angle. I think men who have multiple partners are slutty too, so how’s that for equal time?</em></p>
<p>Call me a Puritan if you like, but I actually agree with Indiana Jim on thinking multiple-partnered men every bit as slutty as multiple-partnered women.  That said, I do realize sex outside marriage is common.  While my characters overall reflect my belief that sex belongs inside marriage, I do my best to balance my characters.  I don&#8217;t strictly follow &#8220;girl virgin = good/not virgin = evil&#8221; stereotype.  That&#8217;s as rude as the &#8220;any deeply religious conservative person is a Bible-thumping fanatic&#8221; stereotype.  Which I endeavor not to take personally.</p>
<p>Irony is harder to pull off than writers like admitting.  If you have to TELL me that you intended to be ironic (or anything else, for that matter), then your writing needs work.  Go practice until I know what you&#8217;re doing without you telling me you&#8217;re (failing at) doing it, then keep at it until someone who doesn&#8217;t write herself can figure it out, too.</p>
<p><strong>Indiana Jim</strong><em><br />
I kind of get pissed when fiction writers do the “men are all stupid and self-absorbed” bit, and also the whole “I could tell you this one simple fact which would explain my position, but I won’t. Instead, I’ll let this character continue to be pissed at the other for no real apparent reason other than it provides conflict” thing. You know?</em></p>
<p>Yeah, those drive me batty, too.  The movie <em>Mr. and Mrs. Smith</em> was fun, but it really demonstrated the entire silly guy vs. smart girl cliches.  Seems like in a lot of works, either the man or the woman has to be right ALL the time.  Why not sometimes the girl, sometimes the guy?</p>
<p>In a similar vein, what about the idiot parents vs. savvy kids trope?  Older CAN be wiser.  (Of course, now I think of YA books that agree with me, there, and pull it off well.)  Now, I realize that it&#8217;s difficult to have the reader know what&#8217;s REALLY going on without making the ignorant narrator seem like a complete idiot.  But &#8220;difficult&#8221; has a different meaning than &#8220;impossible.&#8221;</p>
<p>And seriously, there&#8217;s such thing as trying too hard.  I won&#8217;t name names, but I recently read a novel with a character who&#8217;s a murderous sociopath&#8211;and the writer&#8217;s writing was screaming &#8220;Wow, look at HIM!  Isn&#8217;t he so COOL?!&#8221;  Um, no, he&#8217;s a murderous sociopath, and I think I&#8217;ll quietly excuse myself and hope I never meet you at a convention.</p>
<p>No offense intended by any of this reply.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackie M.</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-22905</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 05:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-22905</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m extremely disappointed that after point #2, no further blowing up of shit was theatened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m extremely disappointed that after point #2, no further blowing up of shit was theatened.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackie</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-22352</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-22352</guid>
		<description>I made it to this blog post by way of the above link from Fantasy magazine. It&#039;s a terrific article, and Tempest&#039;s post has generated a valuable discussion of related topics. Good stuff.

My comment is, however, that any advice--professional or otherwise--that blankets a subject with &quot;Stop writing this&quot; is dangerous advice. We&#039;re all allowed to have opinions, we&#039;re allowed to roll our eyes when we come across another trope we feel has been done to death, or poorly executed, or handled without care. If it&#039;s in a slush pile, one sets it aside and prepares a &quot;Thank you, but no thank you&quot; reply. As an editor, that&#039;s part of the job. Reading lots of stories, appealing or otherwise.

But any and all writers should filter advice through their own sensors. In the blog world, usually a rant about pet peeves is simply that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I made it to this blog post by way of the above link from Fantasy magazine. It&#8217;s a terrific article, and Tempest&#8217;s post has generated a valuable discussion of related topics. Good stuff.</p>
<p>My comment is, however, that any advice&#8211;professional or otherwise&#8211;that blankets a subject with &#8220;Stop writing this&#8221; is dangerous advice. We&#8217;re all allowed to have opinions, we&#8217;re allowed to roll our eyes when we come across another trope we feel has been done to death, or poorly executed, or handled without care. If it&#8217;s in a slush pile, one sets it aside and prepares a &#8220;Thank you, but no thank you&#8221; reply. As an editor, that&#8217;s part of the job. Reading lots of stories, appealing or otherwise.</p>
<p>But any and all writers should filter advice through their own sensors. In the blog world, usually a rant about pet peeves is simply that.</p>
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		<title>By: Fantasy Magazine &#187; Taboos And Tropes: Part II &#8220;Rhetoric And Writing About Rape&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-22333</link>
		<dc:creator>Fantasy Magazine &#187; Taboos And Tropes: Part II &#8220;Rhetoric And Writing About Rape&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-22333</guid>
		<description>[...] K. &#8220;Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Sh*t.&#8221; Ecstatic Days. Jeff Vandermeer: http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/. December 10, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] K. &#8220;Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Sh*t.&#8221; Ecstatic Days. Jeff Vandermeer: <a href="http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/</a>. December 10, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fantasy Magazine &#187; Taboos And Tropes: Part I</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-21672</link>
		<dc:creator>Fantasy Magazine &#187; Taboos And Tropes: Part I</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-21672</guid>
		<description>[...] Saturday, April 4th, 2009permalink,&#160;jump to commentsOn December 10, 2008, Ecstatic Days ran “Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Sh*t” by Fantasy Magazine Managing Editor, Tempest K. Bradford. This article expanded into side bar [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Saturday, April 4th, 2009permalink,&nbsp;jump to commentsOn December 10, 2008, Ecstatic Days ran “Dear Genre Fiction Writers: Quit This Sh*t” by Fantasy Magazine Managing Editor, Tempest K. Bradford. This article expanded into side bar [...]</p>
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		<title>By: leilla</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-20032</link>
		<dc:creator>leilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-20032</guid>
		<description>Interesting post. However, while you may be right about rape being over-used and used in the wrong way, rape does happen a lot and sexual abuse is used in order to exert power over an enemy in order to break them (along with other tactics). Look at the Abu Ghraib scandal. Read accounts of what happened to the women in Berlin after the Russians and Americans conquered it (and they were the good guys, right?). Read accounts of the Greek-Turkish war and every other war. There are plenty of examples on smaller and more personal scale (but I&#039;m a history student so I remember wars). To ignore the fact that sex is very much connected to power is to ignore the facts. Mind you, while rape is abominable, I think these cases and many others show that a person can rape in certain circumstances without being a rapist i.e. without being inherently evil and the rape can be very impersonal (which may be more terrifying). This should come out in genre books more. Fantasy seems to simplify things in this area a bit too much but sex and sexual abuse should be used as plot devices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post. However, while you may be right about rape being over-used and used in the wrong way, rape does happen a lot and sexual abuse is used in order to exert power over an enemy in order to break them (along with other tactics). Look at the Abu Ghraib scandal. Read accounts of what happened to the women in Berlin after the Russians and Americans conquered it (and they were the good guys, right?). Read accounts of the Greek-Turkish war and every other war. There are plenty of examples on smaller and more personal scale (but I&#8217;m a history student so I remember wars). To ignore the fact that sex is very much connected to power is to ignore the facts. Mind you, while rape is abominable, I think these cases and many others show that a person can rape in certain circumstances without being a rapist i.e. without being inherently evil and the rape can be very impersonal (which may be more terrifying). This should come out in genre books more. Fantasy seems to simplify things in this area a bit too much but sex and sexual abuse should be used as plot devices.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaser</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/12/10/dear-genre-fiction-writers-quit-this-sht/comment-page-2/#comment-19678</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=2700#comment-19678</guid>
		<description>Brilliant post--thanks. I just want to add that the bottom line in fiction is not whether you (the reader or the author) approve of feminism or what the statistics are about who does what to whom &quot;in reality.&quot; Nobody goes to genre fiction for social science; they go to escape, and on occasion they find in fiction a truth about the human condition that transcends particulars. Fiction is about  whether you tell a good, fresh, compelling story and execute it well plot-wise, character-wise, narrative-wise, and prose-wise. Yeah, sure Goodkind gets away with violating all those; so does Nora Robert (who tells the same story, with the same characters, over and over and has made a mint doing it).   99 percent of the authors in the world have to work harder than those who are already famous brand names. The advice that is being offered here is: don&#039;t fall back on the same boring-ass conventions and motivations about women that everybody else is using. 

My particular trite pet peeves are: 

1.  Eyes of a startling color.  The whole fiction world is populated with people who have &quot;startling green&quot; or &quot;ice blue&quot; eyes and all that does is conjure up images of The Village of the Damned.

2. Tortured animals and pets. Yeah, boy. This is done over and over and over. Yes, sociopaths practice on animals in reality. People also wipe their butts in reality and we don&#039;t need to see it in detail unless it moves the plot forward--and chances are, it doesn&#039;t.  There&#039;s no bloody screetching whimpering dog scene that you can do that will out-bloody and out-shock the one Stephen King wrote. Best let a bunch of that stuff happen off-camera, as Hollywooders do--such as with Peter Moore Smith&#039;s brilliant Raveling or with Elizabeth Hand&#039;s very good Generation Loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant post&#8211;thanks. I just want to add that the bottom line in fiction is not whether you (the reader or the author) approve of feminism or what the statistics are about who does what to whom &#8220;in reality.&#8221; Nobody goes to genre fiction for social science; they go to escape, and on occasion they find in fiction a truth about the human condition that transcends particulars. Fiction is about  whether you tell a good, fresh, compelling story and execute it well plot-wise, character-wise, narrative-wise, and prose-wise. Yeah, sure Goodkind gets away with violating all those; so does Nora Robert (who tells the same story, with the same characters, over and over and has made a mint doing it).   99 percent of the authors in the world have to work harder than those who are already famous brand names. The advice that is being offered here is: don&#8217;t fall back on the same boring-ass conventions and motivations about women that everybody else is using. </p>
<p>My particular trite pet peeves are: </p>
<p>1.  Eyes of a startling color.  The whole fiction world is populated with people who have &#8220;startling green&#8221; or &#8220;ice blue&#8221; eyes and all that does is conjure up images of The Village of the Damned.</p>
<p>2. Tortured animals and pets. Yeah, boy. This is done over and over and over. Yes, sociopaths practice on animals in reality. People also wipe their butts in reality and we don&#8217;t need to see it in detail unless it moves the plot forward&#8211;and chances are, it doesn&#8217;t.  There&#8217;s no bloody screetching whimpering dog scene that you can do that will out-bloody and out-shock the one Stephen King wrote. Best let a bunch of that stuff happen off-camera, as Hollywooders do&#8211;such as with Peter Moore Smith&#8217;s brilliant Raveling or with Elizabeth Hand&#8217;s very good Generation Loss.</p>
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