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	<title>Comments on: Debate on fantasy literature currently in progress</title>
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	<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/</link>
	<description>Jeff VanderMeer</description>
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		<title>By: MARY C</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14961</link>
		<dc:creator>MARY C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14961</guid>
		<description>WOW! Thanks for the link. Love Ken Wong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOW! Thanks for the link. Love Ken Wong!</p>
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		<title>By: Will Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14958</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14958</guid>
		<description>Aargh! I don&#039;t need to google, Matt put the link in already... Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aargh! I don&#8217;t need to google, Matt put the link in already&#8230; Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Will Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14957</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14957</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t pick up on any derision, Bill.  I see what you mean about generic strands or emphases.  It reminds me of Iain Banks getting somewhat impatient with the &#039;M&#039; initial dividing his SF from his &#039;straight&#039; fiction.  I remember him at a reading getting a bit testy and saying &#039;Science Fiction has spaceships and robots and time travel etc.&#039;  It&#039;s a good a way to look at it as any I suppose.
I&#039;m going to google Ken Wong now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t pick up on any derision, Bill.  I see what you mean about generic strands or emphases.  It reminds me of Iain Banks getting somewhat impatient with the &#8216;M&#8217; initial dividing his SF from his &#8217;straight&#8217; fiction.  I remember him at a reading getting a bit testy and saying &#8216;Science Fiction has spaceships and robots and time travel etc.&#8217;  It&#8217;s a good a way to look at it as any I suppose.<br />
I&#8217;m going to google Ken Wong now.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ectric</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14955</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ectric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14955</guid>
		<description>I love the painting, too! 

Also, I want to make sure everyone knows that I wasn&#039;t deriding fantasy in my last reply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the painting, too! </p>
<p>Also, I want to make sure everyone knows that I wasn&#8217;t deriding fantasy in my last reply.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Staggs</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14954</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Staggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14954</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s by Ken Wong. http://www.kenart.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s by Ken Wong. <a href="http://www.kenart.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.kenart.net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Will Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14952</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14952</guid>
		<description>Oh, and can I just add that I love the painting!  is it Katje Borgesius and Grigori perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and can I just add that I love the painting!  is it Katje Borgesius and Grigori perhaps?</p>
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		<title>By: Great Debate on Fantasy &#171; Nautiloid Burblings</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14951</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Debate on Fantasy &#171; Nautiloid Burblings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14951</guid>
		<description>[...] running on Matt Staggs&#8217; site which he has also transferred to his guest spot on Ecstatic Days here. Naturally, I&#8217;ve plunged right in with some of my own pithy and insightful nuggets of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] running on Matt Staggs&#8217; site which he has also transferred to his guest spot on Ecstatic Days here. Naturally, I&#8217;ve plunged right in with some of my own pithy and insightful nuggets of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Will Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14950</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14950</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Jeff Vandermeer in that I&#039;ve long thought that all literature is fantasy in a fundamental sense: Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens etc.  Any fiction is the attempt to create an artificial world through the imagination.  This conviction has grown partly from arguments with genre-bigots.  I&#039;ve had too many pointless conversations with people who think fantasy is escapist or childish (but why do you NEED to read books with wizards and fairies?) - not like &#039;real&#039; literature.  I know I shouldn&#039;t fall for it and try and defend books like Lyonesse or Starmaker as being among the greatest works of English literature, but I can&#039;t help it.  I guess it&#039;s a personal, egotistical thing in that part of your identity can be bound up with these imaginative and intellectual experiences.

I agree with the idea that there is no easily defined historical boundary either: Apuleius, Petronius and Lucian go right back to the first recorded western literature, not to mention  Sumerian and Egyptian texts - the list should probably go on infinitely into oral epics and fireside stories and myth.

The observation about Spanish language literature is apt.  I&#039;m sure other languages don&#039;t create this crazy division.  Look at how Bulgakov is revered in Russia.  In fact I find it quite amusing and ironic how the critical world in the west always took him so seriously as great literature (quite rightly) whilst sneering at their own fantastic authors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Jeff Vandermeer in that I&#8217;ve long thought that all literature is fantasy in a fundamental sense: Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens etc.  Any fiction is the attempt to create an artificial world through the imagination.  This conviction has grown partly from arguments with genre-bigots.  I&#8217;ve had too many pointless conversations with people who think fantasy is escapist or childish (but why do you NEED to read books with wizards and fairies?) &#8211; not like &#8216;real&#8217; literature.  I know I shouldn&#8217;t fall for it and try and defend books like Lyonesse or Starmaker as being among the greatest works of English literature, but I can&#8217;t help it.  I guess it&#8217;s a personal, egotistical thing in that part of your identity can be bound up with these imaginative and intellectual experiences.</p>
<p>I agree with the idea that there is no easily defined historical boundary either: Apuleius, Petronius and Lucian go right back to the first recorded western literature, not to mention  Sumerian and Egyptian texts &#8211; the list should probably go on infinitely into oral epics and fireside stories and myth.</p>
<p>The observation about Spanish language literature is apt.  I&#8217;m sure other languages don&#8217;t create this crazy division.  Look at how Bulgakov is revered in Russia.  In fact I find it quite amusing and ironic how the critical world in the west always took him so seriously as great literature (quite rightly) whilst sneering at their own fantastic authors.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ectric</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2008/08/13/debate-on-fantasy-literature-currently-in-progress/comment-page-1/#comment-14949</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ectric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/?p=1533#comment-14949</guid>
		<description>Upon reading this discussion, the role of emphasis occurred to me (which may already be obvious to everyone else). Different writers can present the same subject in a variety of ways.

For example, changing lead into gold.

A science fiction story might begin with the concept of bombarding a lead atom with neutrons to change the particle combination from that of lead into that of gold, and expand on this by showing how, in the 30th Century, the process has become commonplace and cost effective.

In fantasy, there is no need to explain the science of it. The procedure might involve a wand, a mortal &amp; pestle, and a jewelry store inside a giant star fruit, were the proprietor is a toad.
 
In sci-fi horror, some poor scientist gets shoved into an atomic reactor by greedy industrialists who want his secret formula (or into a matter transmitter with a bar of gold). He trans-mutates into a grotesque, half-gold monster, thumping and lumbering after the bad guys. Glitter and blood.

In fantasy horror, the bad guys steal an innocent wizard’s gold formula and wall him up in a sepulcher. As a last ironic taunt, they place a gold chain about his neck. The spirit of justice stirs and smolders . . . in due course, a living golden Golem wizard exacts his revenge on the misers who betrayed him.

Anyway, it’s the emphasis, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upon reading this discussion, the role of emphasis occurred to me (which may already be obvious to everyone else). Different writers can present the same subject in a variety of ways.</p>
<p>For example, changing lead into gold.</p>
<p>A science fiction story might begin with the concept of bombarding a lead atom with neutrons to change the particle combination from that of lead into that of gold, and expand on this by showing how, in the 30th Century, the process has become commonplace and cost effective.</p>
<p>In fantasy, there is no need to explain the science of it. The procedure might involve a wand, a mortal &amp; pestle, and a jewelry store inside a giant star fruit, were the proprietor is a toad.</p>
<p>In sci-fi horror, some poor scientist gets shoved into an atomic reactor by greedy industrialists who want his secret formula (or into a matter transmitter with a bar of gold). He trans-mutates into a grotesque, half-gold monster, thumping and lumbering after the bad guys. Glitter and blood.</p>
<p>In fantasy horror, the bad guys steal an innocent wizard’s gold formula and wall him up in a sepulcher. As a last ironic taunt, they place a gold chain about his neck. The spirit of justice stirs and smolders . . . in due course, a living golden Golem wizard exacts his revenge on the misers who betrayed him.</p>
<p>Anyway, it’s the emphasis, I think.</p>
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