Comments on: We Built This City… http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/ Jeff VanderMeer Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:29:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4812 Paul Jessup Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:32:47 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4812 <i> Paul–the thought crystallized as I was reading your comment that while I read all kinds of fiction, I’m really only interested in writing non-realism. There are many hardcore depictions of rural life in literary fiction, but I’m ultimately most interested in my genre, in how to bring that unrelenting view of life into fantasy–because fantasy often communicates internal states to me better than realism, I want to see it communicate external states with the same sensitivity and beauty. I want it to strike bells of awesome so loud no one can deny its power. </i> Right- but when I meant cross-pollination, I meant it. I know exactly what you mean- I can't write realism. I gets bored with it. But what I meant was borrowing from other things- like a magpie. Stealing the good stuff and lacing it with fantasy. For example- Faulkner's Yoknapatawpha County is perfect seeds for a secondary fantasy world. Hell, it's a completely made up county with it's own history and lifestyle. The only thing missing from it is magic and high weirdness. Throw in some occult, some spiritualism, maybe a dash of southern snake charming- and bam! you could have some new little fantasy world. I think that's it for me- I think fantasy (esp secondary world fantasy) is so untapped right now! We have Steampunkery and Mediavilism and that's it. I mean- why? Why not make a secondary world fantasy that is something like America in the 1800's? 1600's? Why limit things to England and it's landscape? it seems to me we are still stuck in the English Empire when it comes to writing fantasy and secondary world fantasy. But I digress. What I simply meant was- we should borrow. We should steal. There are other places that we can take it and change with the mist of the fantastical.
Paul–the thought crystallized as I was reading your comment that while I read all kinds of fiction, I’m really only interested in writing non-realism. There are many hardcore depictions of rural life in literary fiction, but I’m ultimately most interested in my genre, in how to bring that unrelenting view of life into fantasy–because fantasy often communicates internal states to me better than realism, I want to see it communicate external states with the same sensitivity and beauty. I want it to strike bells of awesome so loud no one can deny its power.

Right- but when I meant cross-pollination, I meant it. I know exactly what you mean- I can’t write realism. I gets bored with it. But what I meant was borrowing from other things- like a magpie. Stealing the good stuff and lacing it with fantasy.

For example- Faulkner’s Yoknapatawpha County is perfect seeds for a secondary fantasy world. Hell, it’s a completely made up county with it’s own history and lifestyle. The only thing missing from it is magic and high weirdness. Throw in some occult, some spiritualism, maybe a dash of southern snake charming- and bam! you could have some new little fantasy world.

I think that’s it for me- I think fantasy (esp secondary world fantasy) is so untapped right now! We have Steampunkery and Mediavilism and that’s it. I mean- why? Why not make a secondary world fantasy that is something like America in the 1800’s? 1600’s? Why limit things to England and it’s landscape? it seems to me we are still stuck in the English Empire when it comes to writing fantasy and secondary world fantasy.

But I digress.

What I simply meant was- we should borrow. We should steal. There are other places that we can take it and change with the mist of the fantastical.

]]> By: Catherynne M. Valente http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4770 Catherynne M. Valente Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:48:06 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4770 Paul--the thought crystallized as I was reading your comment that while I read all kinds of fiction, I'm really only interested in writing non-realism. There are many hardcore depictions of rural life in literary fiction, but I'm ultimately most interested in my genre, in how to bring that unrelenting view of life into fantasy--because fantasy often communicates internal states to me better than realism, I want to see it communicate external states with the same sensitivity and beauty. I want it to strike bells of awesome so loud no one can deny its power. Fantasy is my Red Sox, to pick up MattD's metaphor--and I do believe all it takes is patience and love. ;) Paul–the thought crystallized as I was reading your comment that while I read all kinds of fiction, I’m really only interested in writing non-realism. There are many hardcore depictions of rural life in literary fiction, but I’m ultimately most interested in my genre, in how to bring that unrelenting view of life into fantasy–because fantasy often communicates internal states to me better than realism, I want to see it communicate external states with the same sensitivity and beauty. I want it to strike bells of awesome so loud no one can deny its power.

Fantasy is my Red Sox, to pick up MattD’s metaphor–and I do believe all it takes is patience and love. ;)

]]> By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4769 Paul Jessup Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:35:28 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4769 Yes! that is a perfect example (the Shepard book) and Flannery O'Conner (as well as Faulkner) were exactly what I was thinking. Exactly. Yes! that is a perfect example (the Shepard book) and Flannery O’Conner (as well as Faulkner) were exactly what I was thinking. Exactly.

]]> By: Larry http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4766 Larry Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:19:35 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4766 Paul, Are you suggesting something along the lines of incorporating elements of Southern Gothic (namely, the way that history and land usage plays into creating the backdrop), similar to what Flannery O'Connor did to great effect? I grew up in the South and I certainly could see the attractions of having a fantasy landscape where there was this sense of tragic loss mixing in with bitterness under a surface of gentility. I know Lucius Shepard captured this feel in an updated form in his recent book, <i>Softspoken</i>. It'd be nice to encounter <i>that</i> use of landscape to create a mood in other fantasies/SF tales. Paul,

Are you suggesting something along the lines of incorporating elements of Southern Gothic (namely, the way that history and land usage plays into creating the backdrop), similar to what Flannery O’Connor did to great effect? I grew up in the South and I certainly could see the attractions of having a fantasy landscape where there was this sense of tragic loss mixing in with bitterness under a surface of gentility. I know Lucius Shepard captured this feel in an updated form in his recent book, Softspoken. It’d be nice to encounter that use of landscape to create a mood in other fantasies/SF tales.

]]> By: MattD http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4759 MattD Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:00:59 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4759 Paul, since you mention Le Guin...it's been about 15 years since I read it, but I think I remember <i>Tehanu</i> as having a bit of that "rural fantasy" feel, the hardships of farming and such. I'm a city boy, though, so a little may have gone a long way for me: I can't speak to how "serious" her treatment was. As for cities, I always thought Calvino did them very well although we could argue about whether his cities were really "fantasy." But I see in his work something I also see in Jeff V's and Pratchett's and yours, Cat, that the memorable cities are typically the ones we get to experience through multiple points of view. It's funny, despite the "new weird" labeling, what I think appealed to me most about China's <i>PSS</i> was the sense of recognition I had, as a city dweller, of the diversity and fragmentation of city life. Of all different races and systems and such crammed together under a single name, that only actually all identify with that name in times of great crisis or joy. (Of course with New Crobuzon it was slake moths; for Boston it's the Yankees.) Paul, since you mention Le Guin…it’s been about 15 years since I read it, but I think I remember Tehanu as having a bit of that “rural fantasy” feel, the hardships of farming and such. I’m a city boy, though, so a little may have gone a long way for me: I can’t speak to how “serious” her treatment was.

As for cities, I always thought Calvino did them very well although we could argue about whether his cities were really “fantasy.” But I see in his work something I also see in Jeff V’s and Pratchett’s and yours, Cat, that the memorable cities are typically the ones we get to experience through multiple points of view. It’s funny, despite the “new weird” labeling, what I think appealed to me most about China’s PSS was the sense of recognition I had, as a city dweller, of the diversity and fragmentation of city life. Of all different races and systems and such crammed together under a single name, that only actually all identify with that name in times of great crisis or joy. (Of course with New Crobuzon it was slake moths; for Boston it’s the Yankees.)

]]> By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4757 Paul Jessup Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:29:26 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4757 Hmm- I think part of the problem is the utopian feeling attributed to the rural landscape in most fantasy worlds- this idyllic Amish style society where the men plow the fields and women bake bread and all's well and blah blah blah and the characters are all expressionless creations that exist only to create some sort of Norman Rockwell vision of small town life. I think that's why I brought up Riddlemaster- because in some parts, it didn't feel like some sort of dream of rural happiness- it felt dirty and gritty. But at the same time it didn't ring an "awesome bell" for me either. I think really, to get beyond such things it would be better to change the time, the landscape. Colonial America and right after the revolutionary war (or even during the civil war)- there are many stories set in these time periods (non-fantasy mind you- but what the hell- ficiton is fiction, and all fiction is by nature un-real) that are dirty, gritty, real, and carry on a life of their own. Maybe we need to step outside of the common fantasy mindset to explore such places. Remove the tropes for a bit, and see the scaffolding beneath. Maybe a bit of cross pollination is in order. Hmm- I think part of the problem is the utopian feeling attributed to the rural landscape in most fantasy worlds- this idyllic Amish style society where the men plow the fields and women bake bread and all’s well and blah blah blah and the characters are all expressionless creations that exist only to create some sort of Norman Rockwell vision of small town life.

I think that’s why I brought up Riddlemaster- because in some parts, it didn’t feel like some sort of dream of rural happiness- it felt dirty and gritty. But at the same time it didn’t ring an “awesome bell” for me either.

I think really, to get beyond such things it would be better to change the time, the landscape. Colonial America and right after the revolutionary war (or even during the civil war)- there are many stories set in these time periods (non-fantasy mind you- but what the hell- ficiton is fiction, and all fiction is by nature un-real) that are dirty, gritty, real, and carry on a life of their own. Maybe we need to step outside of the common fantasy mindset to explore such places. Remove the tropes for a bit, and see the scaffolding beneath. Maybe a bit of cross pollination is in order.

]]> By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4755 Paul Jessup Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:19:19 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4755 Well, I would be lying if I said I read all of the books- or even anything after the second chapter. Although I did love Beasts of Eld....and I thought the world building was better than the shire in the aspect of detail of what it takes to run a small, agrarian kingdom. Hmm. I'm trying to think of any rural fantasy landscape that is interesting- guess nothing comes to mind. Of course, then again my experience in fantasy of that variety is very limited- mostly to Tolkien, McKillip and Le Guin. And that was all from my childhood, years ago. Well, I would be lying if I said I read all of the books- or even anything after the second chapter. Although I did love Beasts of Eld….and I thought the world building was better than the shire in the aspect of detail of what it takes to run a small, agrarian kingdom.

Hmm. I’m trying to think of any rural fantasy landscape that is interesting- guess nothing comes to mind. Of course, then again my experience in fantasy of that variety is very limited- mostly to Tolkien, McKillip and Le Guin. And that was all from my childhood, years ago.

]]> By: Catherynne M. Valente http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4754 Catherynne M. Valente Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:14:11 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4754 Paul--I actually started those books this summer, so I've at least read the part you're referring to. I guess it just didn't ring much more of a hardcore-awesome bell than the Shire did for me... Paul–I actually started those books this summer, so I’ve at least read the part you’re referring to. I guess it just didn’t ring much more of a hardcore-awesome bell than the Shire did for me…

]]> By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4753 Paul Jessup Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:03 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4753 By pig-prince I don't mean literal pig-man creature, but rather is a prince whose castle is also the home to pigs, since it is partly a big farm. By pig-prince I don’t mean literal pig-man creature, but rather is a prince whose castle is also the home to pigs, since it is partly a big farm.

]]> By: Paul Jessup http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/comment-page-1/#comment-4752 Paul Jessup Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:26:08 +0000 http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/11/27/we-built-this-city/#comment-4752 <i> I suppose fairy tales and traditional fantasy are necessarily, if not urban fantasy, rural fantasy. And yet…I’d love to see fantasy that treats the issues of rural life with the same seriousness that Perdido Street Station gives the city. </i> I would suggest running out and getting Patricia A. McKillip's Riddlemaster books post-haste. The start is a very realistic rural farming kingdom, and the main character is a pig-prince. It's great because the first chapter is basically about selling and trading things like wheat and beer, and about a prince come back from a riddling school, who has won a crown from a ghost. Fun stuff.
I suppose fairy tales and traditional fantasy are necessarily, if not urban fantasy, rural fantasy. And yet…I’d love to see fantasy that treats the issues of rural life with the same seriousness that Perdido Street Station gives the city.

I would suggest running out and getting Patricia A. McKillip’s Riddlemaster books post-haste. The start is a very realistic rural farming kingdom, and the main character is a pig-prince. It’s great because the first chapter is basically about selling and trading things like wheat and beer, and about a prince come back from a riddling school, who has won a crown from a ghost.

Fun stuff.

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