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	<title>Comments on: The Triumph of Competence</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/</link>
	<description>Jeff VanderMeer</description>
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		<title>By: Carradee</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-3/#comment-25511</link>
		<dc:creator>Carradee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-25511</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve noticed that so much of what I read is immemorable--or, at least, it fails to resonate enough that I want to dig it up to reread years later.  I can think of one short story that I&#039;ve read that just thinking about it makes me want to go find it again... something dragon... &quot;Linda&#039;s Dragon&quot; by [Google search] Brenda Cooper.

I might admire one author&#039;s worldbuilding skill, but not be the most fond of her character development ability; or maybe I love an author&#039;s banter between two characters, but find her plot development a little weak or confusing.  Or maybe I don&#039;t care for the book overall but love a character or two.

That means there are few books I ever bother to reread, and fewer that I rave about to friends.  It makes me sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve noticed that so much of what I read is immemorable&#8211;or, at least, it fails to resonate enough that I want to dig it up to reread years later.  I can think of one short story that I&#8217;ve read that just thinking about it makes me want to go find it again&#8230; something dragon&#8230; &#8220;Linda&#8217;s Dragon&#8221; by [Google search] Brenda Cooper.</p>
<p>I might admire one author&#8217;s worldbuilding skill, but not be the most fond of her character development ability; or maybe I love an author&#8217;s banter between two characters, but find her plot development a little weak or confusing.  Or maybe I don&#8217;t care for the book overall but love a character or two.</p>
<p>That means there are few books I ever bother to reread, and fewer that I rave about to friends.  It makes me sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaolin Fire (GUD Magazine)</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-3/#comment-3960</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaolin Fire (GUD Magazine)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3960</guid>
		<description>Great stuff.

Regarding a comment above: &lt;i&gt;What gets published most readily is lowest-common-denominator swill&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gudmagazine.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greatest Uncommon Denominator&lt;/a&gt; agrees.  How can I get the folks here to give it a chance?  Free copies of any story in any issue, as PDF.  Available for sale as PDF or hardcopy to anywhere in the world (in theory).  I know we won&#039;t be everyone&#039;s cup of tea (and on the end we&#039;re probably not as &quot;extreme&quot; as some people would want), but our _target audience_ sounds a lot like the folks talking here.  GUD welcomes comments, criticism--hell, even a bit of vituperation--we just want to get out there and be given a chance.  And our advertising budget sucks. ;)  But we&#039;ve got some beautiful stories!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great stuff.</p>
<p>Regarding a comment above: <i>What gets published most readily is lowest-common-denominator swill</i></p>
<p><a href="http://www.gudmagazine.com" rel="nofollow">Greatest Uncommon Denominator</a> agrees.  How can I get the folks here to give it a chance?  Free copies of any story in any issue, as PDF.  Available for sale as PDF or hardcopy to anywhere in the world (in theory).  I know we won&#8217;t be everyone&#8217;s cup of tea (and on the end we&#8217;re probably not as &#8220;extreme&#8221; as some people would want), but our _target audience_ sounds a lot like the folks talking here.  GUD welcomes comments, criticism&#8211;hell, even a bit of vituperation&#8211;we just want to get out there and be given a chance.  And our advertising budget sucks. ;)  But we&#8217;ve got some beautiful stories!</p>
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		<title>By: Subterranean 7 &#171; Torque Control</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-3/#comment-3804</link>
		<dc:creator>Subterranean 7 &#171; Torque Control</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3804</guid>
		<description>[...] no columns, no reviews. So there are just the stories &#8212; which, given the rather abstract recent brouhaha about the triumph of competence, makes the magazine an interesting test case. (I wish [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] no columns, no reviews. So there are just the stories &#8212; which, given the rather abstract recent brouhaha about the triumph of competence, makes the magazine an interesting test case. (I wish [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Why Do People Read? &#171; Failed Sutra</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-3/#comment-3745</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Do People Read? &#171; Failed Sutra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3745</guid>
		<description>[...] up certain  debates doing the rounds, I can&#8217;t help but think of one essential question at the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] up certain  debates doing the rounds, I can&#8217;t help but think of one essential question at the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jeff ford</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-3/#comment-3679</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3679</guid>
		<description>&quot;What strikes me is that most of those who have had negative comments have said so, but not engaged in a conversation on this thread.&quot;
Jeff:  In your original posts to me you made it seem that you did not want me posting on your blog anymore, but here, with the above quote you seem to want me to participate.  Can&#039;t tell which, but here&#039;s a question -- 
I was wondering since you have published novels with Bantam, TOR and Pan Macmillan, none of whom read slush, if these works were triumphs of the merely competent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What strikes me is that most of those who have had negative comments have said so, but not engaged in a conversation on this thread.&#8221;<br />
Jeff:  In your original posts to me you made it seem that you did not want me posting on your blog anymore, but here, with the above quote you seem to want me to participate.  Can&#8217;t tell which, but here&#8217;s a question &#8212;<br />
I was wondering since you have published novels with Bantam, TOR and Pan Macmillan, none of whom read slush, if these works were triumphs of the merely competent?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-2/#comment-3654</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3654</guid>
		<description>Yes--this post of mine works best in combination to the one on open anthologies, etc.

I think the biggest surprise to me is not that there was a lot of blow back on this post, but the personal attacks. 

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes&#8211;this post of mine works best in combination to the one on open anthologies, etc.</p>
<p>I think the biggest surprise to me is not that there was a lot of blow back on this post, but the personal attacks. </p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Christini</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-2/#comment-3638</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Christini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3638</guid>
		<description>The main problem is far from aesthetic. There&#039;s plenty of talent and technical skill around. Plus the problem with weak fiction, and art generally, extends far beyond fantasy short fiction. The problem is cultural, intellectual, economic - no realms of which are predomantly libratory or thriving in conditions remotely approaching optimal. In fact, in many ways the cultural, intellectual and economic realms - the socio-political - are barbaric or stagnant. Much fiction and other art not only reflects that but propagates it. Thus, in my view, the great need for accomplished libratory lit, liberation lit: http://liblit.org.

I&#039;ve written in this vein extensively, both critically and imaginatively: http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/jeff-vandermeer-lamenting-the-state-of-fantasy-short-fiction/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main problem is far from aesthetic. There&#8217;s plenty of talent and technical skill around. Plus the problem with weak fiction, and art generally, extends far beyond fantasy short fiction. The problem is cultural, intellectual, economic &#8211; no realms of which are predomantly libratory or thriving in conditions remotely approaching optimal. In fact, in many ways the cultural, intellectual and economic realms &#8211; the socio-political &#8211; are barbaric or stagnant. Much fiction and other art not only reflects that but propagates it. Thus, in my view, the great need for accomplished libratory lit, liberation lit: <a href="http://liblit.org" rel="nofollow">http://liblit.org</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written in this vein extensively, both critically and imaginatively: <a href="http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/jeff-vandermeer-lamenting-the-state-of-fantasy-short-fiction/" rel="nofollow">http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/jeff-vandermeer-lamenting-the-state-of-fantasy-short-fiction/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer lamenting the state of fantasy short fiction &#171; A Practical Policy</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-2/#comment-3636</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer lamenting the state of fantasy short fiction &#171; A Practical Policy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3636</guid>
		<description>[...] VanderMeer lamenting the state of fantasy short&#160;fiction October 22nd, 2007 &#8212; tc   VanderMeer: &#8230;the more Iâ€™ve thought about it, the more I feel that my general apathy when reading a lot [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] VanderMeer lamenting the state of fantasy short&nbsp;fiction October 22nd, 2007 &#8212; tc   VanderMeer: &#8230;the more Iâ€™ve thought about it, the more I feel that my general apathy when reading a lot [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Buchheit</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-2/#comment-3598</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Buchheit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3598</guid>
		<description>John Schoffstall, &quot;I found submitted stories more often failed because they were too conservative... the Same Old Thing, putting a bunch of tired old dwarves, ghosts, and axe murderers through their paces, not because they were peculiar...&quot;

This goes to my comment about, &quot;reading the market to see what we like.&quot; While some of us can see this as reading in a meta sense, many will look at it as feeding back similar stories. After all, the markets bought those before. 

There could be a larger discussion about what feeds into the cycle is usually what comes out, just processed. All creative endevors have this issue. The creators look and talk to each other, the discuss what&#039;s happening, discuss trends, try to feed their minds, and out comes mostly what they&#039;ve been eating. Some people can look at what&#039;s out there an synthesize something new. Mostly, however, it&#039;s a rediscovery rather than something new. Or a combination of different things in a new way. 

A question would be if you received stories that push the boundries, went somewhere new or different, but had that &quot;tired writing&quot; from a new author, would you be more prone to move those forward? What if that same story was from a BNA?

Do publishing houses contract with new authors who haven&#039;t produced a full novel before even though they have the &quot;great idea,&quot; or do new authors who haven&#039;t been published before get invited to closed anthos? Isn&#039;t that because the new author needs to show they can produce saleable work, that they can bring an audience. Isn&#039;t this showing that you can play inside the box (again, the box isn&#039;t an excuse for not making a story challenging, exciting, new, or &quot;dangerous,&quot; it&#039;s a box that says you can write to a length, write something good, that you know the market/history/what works/how to tell a story, have the basics down to avoid that &quot;tired writing&quot;)?

My day job is graphic design. I have design inside boxes all the time. Business cards, they&#039;re 3.5x2 here in N. America. Why, because eveyrthing that is built around them requires that size, and it&#039;s traditional. #10 Business envelopes, 9.5x4.125. If I want a square flap that&#039;s going to cost my client more and I better have a damn good reason for it other than, &quot;I&#039;ve always wanted to do one.&quot; At a former in-house position I had even more restrictions for the &quot;corporate look.&quot; Does that mean I wasn&#039;t &quot;creative&quot; because I had &quot;limits.&quot; BS. It was harder, sure. Sometimes I was called because the powers that be believe I broke their rules, until I showed them that I was working inside their &quot;box.&quot; Ink on paper is another box I work inside. I now work for a printer and I&#039;ve finally seen designs that come in that are unprintable, because the designer just didn&#039;t understand how ink on paper works. 

Again, I am completely willing to be wrong about print publication and writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Schoffstall, &#8220;I found submitted stories more often failed because they were too conservative&#8230; the Same Old Thing, putting a bunch of tired old dwarves, ghosts, and axe murderers through their paces, not because they were peculiar&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This goes to my comment about, &#8220;reading the market to see what we like.&#8221; While some of us can see this as reading in a meta sense, many will look at it as feeding back similar stories. After all, the markets bought those before. </p>
<p>There could be a larger discussion about what feeds into the cycle is usually what comes out, just processed. All creative endevors have this issue. The creators look and talk to each other, the discuss what&#8217;s happening, discuss trends, try to feed their minds, and out comes mostly what they&#8217;ve been eating. Some people can look at what&#8217;s out there an synthesize something new. Mostly, however, it&#8217;s a rediscovery rather than something new. Or a combination of different things in a new way. </p>
<p>A question would be if you received stories that push the boundries, went somewhere new or different, but had that &#8220;tired writing&#8221; from a new author, would you be more prone to move those forward? What if that same story was from a BNA?</p>
<p>Do publishing houses contract with new authors who haven&#8217;t produced a full novel before even though they have the &#8220;great idea,&#8221; or do new authors who haven&#8217;t been published before get invited to closed anthos? Isn&#8217;t that because the new author needs to show they can produce saleable work, that they can bring an audience. Isn&#8217;t this showing that you can play inside the box (again, the box isn&#8217;t an excuse for not making a story challenging, exciting, new, or &#8220;dangerous,&#8221; it&#8217;s a box that says you can write to a length, write something good, that you know the market/history/what works/how to tell a story, have the basics down to avoid that &#8220;tired writing&#8221;)?</p>
<p>My day job is graphic design. I have design inside boxes all the time. Business cards, they&#8217;re 3.5&#215;2 here in N. America. Why, because eveyrthing that is built around them requires that size, and it&#8217;s traditional. #10 Business envelopes, 9.5&#215;4.125. If I want a square flap that&#8217;s going to cost my client more and I better have a damn good reason for it other than, &#8220;I&#8217;ve always wanted to do one.&#8221; At a former in-house position I had even more restrictions for the &#8220;corporate look.&#8221; Does that mean I wasn&#8217;t &#8220;creative&#8221; because I had &#8220;limits.&#8221; BS. It was harder, sure. Sometimes I was called because the powers that be believe I broke their rules, until I showed them that I was working inside their &#8220;box.&#8221; Ink on paper is another box I work inside. I now work for a printer and I&#8217;ve finally seen designs that come in that are unprintable, because the designer just didn&#8217;t understand how ink on paper works. </p>
<p>Again, I am completely willing to be wrong about print publication and writing.</p>
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		<title>By: David de Beer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/comment-page-2/#comment-3581</link>
		<dc:creator>David de Beer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 09:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/10/16/the-triumph-of-competence/#comment-3581</guid>
		<description>hmm, Kelly Link is basically saying the same thing. I wonder...is it because she&#039;s talking about unfinished stories/ stories in progress rather than ones already done and about?

eh, the world makes little sense at the best of times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmm, Kelly Link is basically saying the same thing. I wonder&#8230;is it because she&#8217;s talking about unfinished stories/ stories in progress rather than ones already done and about?</p>
<p>eh, the world makes little sense at the best of times.</p>
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