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	<title>Comments on: Gabe Chouinard Destroys Online Community</title>
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	<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/</link>
	<description>Jeff VanderMeer</description>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Seeberger</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Seeberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 15:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-529</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s understandable why Gabe would want out after this debacle (his name being thrown around like toilet paper and everything).  I&#039;m happy that Chris was able to get the forums up and running again though.  The people at Frameshift have gone through this a lot (earthquakes) so I doubt it really affects them much.

I hope Gabe continues to write and think about SF, even if he says he is &quot;out of it.&quot; Regardless of administration/leadership quirks he may have, he is undoubtedly one of the best writers I&#039;ve ever met (online only though, sadly), and has had the most impact on my own writing than anyone else, outside of a few long-dead writers.

I understand that a lot of people have anger.  I hope someday forgiveness comes.  We are a small group of artists who have a lot to say.  I feel sorry about the people who lost money and time, and the breaking of trust.  That&#039;s hard to earn back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s understandable why Gabe would want out after this debacle (his name being thrown around like toilet paper and everything).  I&#8217;m happy that Chris was able to get the forums up and running again though.  The people at Frameshift have gone through this a lot (earthquakes) so I doubt it really affects them much.</p>
<p>I hope Gabe continues to write and think about SF, even if he says he is &#8220;out of it.&#8221; Regardless of administration/leadership quirks he may have, he is undoubtedly one of the best writers I&#8217;ve ever met (online only though, sadly), and has had the most impact on my own writing than anyone else, outside of a few long-dead writers.</p>
<p>I understand that a lot of people have anger.  I hope someday forgiveness comes.  We are a small group of artists who have a lot to say.  I feel sorry about the people who lost money and time, and the breaking of trust.  That&#8217;s hard to earn back.</p>
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		<title>By: littlemouse</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>littlemouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 03:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-208</guid>
		<description>Just happened upon this site when I noticed this guys name.  Sounds like he hasn&#039;t changed in past 15 years.  Have not seen him in 13.  Suits me fine.  Sounds like all the same shit, but with internet involved now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just happened upon this site when I noticed this guys name.  Sounds like he hasn&#8217;t changed in past 15 years.  Have not seen him in 13.  Suits me fine.  Sounds like all the same shit, but with internet involved now.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Phil:

I only rarely say this, but: you&#039;re a self-important idiot.

Cheers,

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil:</p>
<p>I only rarely say this, but: you&#8217;re a self-important idiot.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-105</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with J. Alan Parkes on this one.  Like him, I met Gabe in the bookstore, and ended up spending a fair bit of time talking with him on a wide variety of topics over several years.  It&#039;s been several years now since I&#039;ve talked to him, so I don&#039;t know how he has changed in that time.  But in person at that time he was charming, charismatic, and introduced me to a number of aspects of SF that I would never have looked into on my own,  And it is clear that he was doing the same thing for quite a few other people.

As to what is going on now, I only &#039;know&#039; what I&#039;ve read here and on JonathonM&#039;s various sites.  So what he has done certainly looks bad (and I&#039;m saying &#039;looks&#039; because I don&#039;t know what is going on behind the scenes).  If half of what I&#039;ve read is true and accurately reflects what happened, he has more than a bit of amends to make.

The outrage over the business matter does puzzle me, though.  While it is true that people do make business deals based on just a handshake, they are very selective in who they make deals with.  Prior to shaking hands, they evaluate the likelihood that the other person will have both the capability, the intent and the determination to complete their part of the deal.  For example, I don&#039;t think that a diamond merchant from the jewelry district is going to give me a $10 million diamond just based on a handshake, no matter how much he thinks that I intend to pay him for it in the future.  Gabe&#039;s personal situation is well known to anyone in the community, at least to anyone who has been reading his blog.  So it is hard for me to understand why people are so upset when the totally expected occurs - he can neither complete the project nor return the money.  And to publically grouse about it reflects just as badly on the complainer as on Gabe, in my opinion.

But that is as much as I&#039;m going to say, because I don&#039;t think that critically analyzing people in this way on the internet is proper (and maybe I&#039;ve already written too much).  Given the imperfections of the media, it is more likely to shed fur than to shed light.  There has already been far too many things discussed in a public forum that should have been done privately.  Nobody ends up looking good in these situations.

--

Phil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with J. Alan Parkes on this one.  Like him, I met Gabe in the bookstore, and ended up spending a fair bit of time talking with him on a wide variety of topics over several years.  It&#8217;s been several years now since I&#8217;ve talked to him, so I don&#8217;t know how he has changed in that time.  But in person at that time he was charming, charismatic, and introduced me to a number of aspects of SF that I would never have looked into on my own,  And it is clear that he was doing the same thing for quite a few other people.</p>
<p>As to what is going on now, I only &#8216;know&#8217; what I&#8217;ve read here and on JonathonM&#8217;s various sites.  So what he has done certainly looks bad (and I&#8217;m saying &#8216;looks&#8217; because I don&#8217;t know what is going on behind the scenes).  If half of what I&#8217;ve read is true and accurately reflects what happened, he has more than a bit of amends to make.</p>
<p>The outrage over the business matter does puzzle me, though.  While it is true that people do make business deals based on just a handshake, they are very selective in who they make deals with.  Prior to shaking hands, they evaluate the likelihood that the other person will have both the capability, the intent and the determination to complete their part of the deal.  For example, I don&#8217;t think that a diamond merchant from the jewelry district is going to give me a $10 million diamond just based on a handshake, no matter how much he thinks that I intend to pay him for it in the future.  Gabe&#8217;s personal situation is well known to anyone in the community, at least to anyone who has been reading his blog.  So it is hard for me to understand why people are so upset when the totally expected occurs &#8211; he can neither complete the project nor return the money.  And to publically grouse about it reflects just as badly on the complainer as on Gabe, in my opinion.</p>
<p>But that is as much as I&#8217;m going to say, because I don&#8217;t think that critically analyzing people in this way on the internet is proper (and maybe I&#8217;ve already written too much).  Given the imperfections of the media, it is more likely to shed fur than to shed light.  There has already been far too many things discussed in a public forum that should have been done privately.  Nobody ends up looking good in these situations.</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>Phil</p>
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		<title>By: Gabe Chouinard destroys several online communities on his way out of the field at Tobias Buckell Online</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe Chouinard destroys several online communities on his way out of the field at Tobias Buckell Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-100</guid>
		<description>[...] They say don&#8217;t burn your bridges. It&#8217;s also a good idea not to reach around and burn everyone else&#8217;s bridges nearby in a fit on your way out as well. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] They say don&#8217;t burn your bridges. It&#8217;s also a good idea not to reach around and burn everyone else&#8217;s bridges nearby in a fit on your way out as well. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kameron Hurley</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Kameron Hurley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jul 2007 20:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-95</guid>
		<description>&quot;I also realize that he has suffered through a series of staggering personal misfortunes that make Job look lucky.&quot;

There&#039;s personal misfortune of the &quot;I got a chronic illness&quot; type and personal misfortune of the &quot;I was an asshole and people shit on me&quot; type. Again, by his own admission, much of his &quot;misfortune&quot; has occured because he was a flighty asshole. 

This is all classic selfish behavior stuff: tearing down forums where other people have formed communities, clearing out projects that other people are involved in without consulting them. It&#039;s burning other people&#039;s bridges. Unless it turns out he&#039;s seriously mentally ill, I don&#039;t see any excuse for that except aforementioned flighty selfishness. 

And at least if we find out he&#039;s mentally ill, it&#039;ll all make a lot more sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I also realize that he has suffered through a series of staggering personal misfortunes that make Job look lucky.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s personal misfortune of the &#8220;I got a chronic illness&#8221; type and personal misfortune of the &#8220;I was an asshole and people shit on me&#8221; type. Again, by his own admission, much of his &#8220;misfortune&#8221; has occured because he was a flighty asshole. </p>
<p>This is all classic selfish behavior stuff: tearing down forums where other people have formed communities, clearing out projects that other people are involved in without consulting them. It&#8217;s burning other people&#8217;s bridges. Unless it turns out he&#8217;s seriously mentally ill, I don&#8217;t see any excuse for that except aforementioned flighty selfishness. </p>
<p>And at least if we find out he&#8217;s mentally ill, it&#8217;ll all make a lot more sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Connell</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 18:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-88</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t detect any anger - quite the contrary. Of course I am well aware that Jeff only breathes in blue air (occassional cigar smoke?) and breathes out healing energies.

In fact, if these healing energies had been breathed earlier, I wouldn&#039;t have sent in one of my books to Scalpel for review.

But hey, maybe it still will be reviewed, right !?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t detect any anger &#8211; quite the contrary. Of course I am well aware that Jeff only breathes in blue air (occassional cigar smoke?) and breathes out healing energies.</p>
<p>In fact, if these healing energies had been breathed earlier, I wouldn&#8217;t have sent in one of my books to Scalpel for review.</p>
<p>But hey, maybe it still will be reviewed, right !?!</p>
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		<title>By: Mo</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>Mo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-87</guid>
		<description>No, you do sound calm in this post, which is probably not easy given the nature of the subject. 
It was in case you had that quiet anger bubbling away. Hard to tell with just text though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you do sound calm in this post, which is probably not easy given the nature of the subject.<br />
It was in case you had that quiet anger bubbling away. Hard to tell with just text though.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Mamatas</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Mamatas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 03:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Gabe emailed me this morning saying he wouldnâ€™t be â€œreturning to speculative fictionâ€.&lt;/i&gt;

Wouldn&#039;t that involve being in spec fic in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Gabe emailed me this morning saying he wouldnâ€™t be â€œreturning to speculative fictionâ€.</i></p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t that involve being in spec fic in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff VanderMeer</title>
		<link>http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/comment-page-1/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff VanderMeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2007/06/27/gabe-chouinard-destroys-online-community/#comment-84</guid>
		<description>Mo: Not quite sure why you have to remind me to breathe. It&#039;s a perfectly reasonable and calm post. But perhaps I&#039;m not breathing in what you&#039;re breathing in.

Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mo: Not quite sure why you have to remind me to breathe. It&#8217;s a perfectly reasonable and calm post. But perhaps I&#8217;m not breathing in what you&#8217;re breathing in.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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